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	<title>Comments on: Vietnam- the Sept. 1 deadline and the demand for a new intercountry agreement amidst a landscape of fraud</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.babylovechild.org/2008/08/31/vietnam-the-sept-1-deadline-and-the-demand-for-a-new-intercountry-agreement-amidst-a-landscape-of-fraud/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.babylovechild.org/2008/08/31/vietnam-the-sept-1-deadline-and-the-demand-for-a-new-intercountry-agreement-amidst-a-landscape-of-fraud/</link>
	<description>Yet another Bastard Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Baby Love Child</title>
		<link>http://www.babylovechild.org/2008/08/31/vietnam-the-sept-1-deadline-and-the-demand-for-a-new-intercountry-agreement-amidst-a-landscape-of-fraud/comment-page-1/#comment-274</link>
		<dc:creator>Baby Love Child</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Sep 2008 02:57:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.babylovechild.org/2008/08/31/vietnam-the-sept-1-deadline-and-the-demand-for-a-new-intercountry-agreement-amidst-a-landscape-of-fraud/#comment-274</guid>
		<description>Nicki, 

I was doing one final search prior to hitting post on my own piece and of course, VfVAI came up, kinda right on cue actually, I suppose I assumed sooner or later some form of piece would be up on your page, I&#039;m just glad it was up in time for me to include it. It was a very clear articulation of yes, precisely the ethical dilemma some adoptive families now find themselves in. I thought it important to at least in some way bring that perspective forward tonight too, (after all, what are folks like me, other than one time kids raised in adoptive families ourselves?)  The &quot;end of an era&quot; piece very clearly put a finger right down on the ambiguity and discomfort some are feeling, even while not &#039;regretting, nor revisiting&#039; those decisions perse. A very fine line to walk. It couldn&#039;t have been easy to write, and I found it a strong &#039;other side of the coin&#039; for those wrestling with the &quot;conundrum&quot; from that angle. 

&lt;blockquote&gt;The end of an era article was originally an extremely long somewhat disjointed partly incoherent rambling, itself. I can relate.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I think it was very appropriately cutting to the core of the issue. Still, glad I&#039;m not the only one. This has been exceptionally difficult to finally get out, and naturally, no I&#039;m not satisfied, but it will do.

While I may not always agree with what I see on VfVAI, I have been a somewhat regular reader, and yes, the page has been an invaluable tool in helping me get up to speed on all this. 

The perspectives and at times interests between the VfVAI blog and mine are obviously, somewhat different (being at very different positions in what I&#039;ve come to term the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.babylovechild.org/tag/adoption-pentagon/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;adoption pentagon&lt;/a&gt; that&#039;s perfectly expected) but clearly, those writing there are not fully wallowing in the &quot;I got mine-ism&quot; so commonly on display across the adoptive parent blogosphere. 

Yes, just as there have always been, there are adopters who are deeply concerned with the &quot;ethics&quot; (though the terms comes with a certain baggage in this climate) of adoption and yes, obviously care very deeply about what is best for the adopted person, to the point of being willing to perhaps set aside some of their own feelings in relation to things such as helping an adopted person regain lost pieces of identity. Or to stare directly, unflinchingly into the maw of some of what adoption practices really can mean, and to see those ugly parts without the benefit of adoption rose colored glasses.

Which is not to say adoption is &#039;pure ick&#039;, just that in light of circumstances of kidnapping, childselling, etc many would rather deny rather than actually even begin to ponder the possibility of what they may have themselves been part of. 

As for after the fact what does one do?

Well &#039;preventative medicine&#039; where possible is still my preference, but for those now here, I think all one can do is speak truth and do whatever little one can to help people regain any fragments still available to them while such are still possible. 

Living a lie, any lie is no solution.

Not for the kids, not for adults, not for countries, and not for families.

For now, I&#039;ll leave it at that.

I do have to point out one quick thing though, you said

&lt;blockquote&gt;You are the voice that our children do not yet have.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Actually no, I&#039;m not. 

I&#039;m a domestic adoptee in a sealed records system.

While that has commonalities of question marks with what many of your children may experience, their experiences are going to be very distinct from mine and only their voice can address the situation they are going to find themselves in.

I&#039;m &lt;strong&gt;A&lt;/strong&gt; voice of experience of a particular subset of adoptee experience (although I prefer &quot;Bastard&quot; when referring to myself.)

This is one of the many limitations of the english language. The same word is utilized for domestic closed adoptions as for transnational adoptions (as I pointed out in the intro to my piece.) Foster adoptions, international adoptions, so called &quot;open adoptions&quot;, adoptees with open records (from open records states) and state confiscated records (from sealed record states), etc, are all sloppily lumped together.

Some, particularly certain industry lobbyists and marketers, play those conflations to the hilt, whereas I continually work for increased precision, pulling apart linguistic assumptions.

I cannot presume to speak for nor on behalf of the kids coming up from those situations. 

I can however, speak to what secrets and lies, living with question marks in place of fundamental facts about one&#039;s own existence on a day to day basis can feel like, and how rather than being in the business of creating more people who at times literally find themselves in the position of second class citizens legally in relation to the state, the state should instead be working towards eradicating those forms of inequity.

One of the fundamental and unavoidable problems with, or perhaps nature of adoption is that those in those situations are going to have a roughly 18 year lag, if their paperwork goes through tonight before they are able to legally fully participate in society and fully speak on their own behalf.

Any &#039;mistakes&#039;, (legal, &quot;ethical&quot; etc) made now, have a lag period before those most directly affected can speak on their own behalf.

For that reason alone, we should be deeply questioning &lt;strong&gt;ANY&lt;/strong&gt; reopening of Vietnam in the going forward from here.





</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nicki, </p>
<p>I was doing one final search prior to hitting post on my own piece and of course, VfVAI came up, kinda right on cue actually, I suppose I assumed sooner or later some form of piece would be up on your page, I&#8217;m just glad it was up in time for me to include it. It was a very clear articulation of yes, precisely the ethical dilemma some adoptive families now find themselves in. I thought it important to at least in some way bring that perspective forward tonight too, (after all, what are folks like me, other than one time kids raised in adoptive families ourselves?)  The &#8220;end of an era&#8221; piece very clearly put a finger right down on the ambiguity and discomfort some are feeling, even while not &#8216;regretting, nor revisiting&#8217; those decisions perse. A very fine line to walk. It couldn&#8217;t have been easy to write, and I found it a strong &#8216;other side of the coin&#8217; for those wrestling with the &#8220;conundrum&#8221; from that angle. </p>
<blockquote><p>The end of an era article was originally an extremely long somewhat disjointed partly incoherent rambling, itself. I can relate.</p></blockquote>
<p>I think it was very appropriately cutting to the core of the issue. Still, glad I&#8217;m not the only one. This has been exceptionally difficult to finally get out, and naturally, no I&#8217;m not satisfied, but it will do.</p>
<p>While I may not always agree with what I see on VfVAI, I have been a somewhat regular reader, and yes, the page has been an invaluable tool in helping me get up to speed on all this. </p>
<p>The perspectives and at times interests between the VfVAI blog and mine are obviously, somewhat different (being at very different positions in what I&#8217;ve come to term the <a href="http://www.babylovechild.org/tag/adoption-pentagon/" rel="nofollow">adoption pentagon</a> that&#8217;s perfectly expected) but clearly, those writing there are not fully wallowing in the &#8220;I got mine-ism&#8221; so commonly on display across the adoptive parent blogosphere. </p>
<p>Yes, just as there have always been, there are adopters who are deeply concerned with the &#8220;ethics&#8221; (though the terms comes with a certain baggage in this climate) of adoption and yes, obviously care very deeply about what is best for the adopted person, to the point of being willing to perhaps set aside some of their own feelings in relation to things such as helping an adopted person regain lost pieces of identity. Or to stare directly, unflinchingly into the maw of some of what adoption practices really can mean, and to see those ugly parts without the benefit of adoption rose colored glasses.</p>
<p>Which is not to say adoption is &#8216;pure ick&#8217;, just that in light of circumstances of kidnapping, childselling, etc many would rather deny rather than actually even begin to ponder the possibility of what they may have themselves been part of. </p>
<p>As for after the fact what does one do?</p>
<p>Well &#8216;preventative medicine&#8217; where possible is still my preference, but for those now here, I think all one can do is speak truth and do whatever little one can to help people regain any fragments still available to them while such are still possible. </p>
<p>Living a lie, any lie is no solution.</p>
<p>Not for the kids, not for adults, not for countries, and not for families.</p>
<p>For now, I&#8217;ll leave it at that.</p>
<p>I do have to point out one quick thing though, you said</p>
<blockquote><p>You are the voice that our children do not yet have.</p></blockquote>
<p>Actually no, I&#8217;m not. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m a domestic adoptee in a sealed records system.</p>
<p>While that has commonalities of question marks with what many of your children may experience, their experiences are going to be very distinct from mine and only their voice can address the situation they are going to find themselves in.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m <strong>A</strong> voice of experience of a particular subset of adoptee experience (although I prefer &#8220;Bastard&#8221; when referring to myself.)</p>
<p>This is one of the many limitations of the english language. The same word is utilized for domestic closed adoptions as for transnational adoptions (as I pointed out in the intro to my piece.) Foster adoptions, international adoptions, so called &#8220;open adoptions&#8221;, adoptees with open records (from open records states) and state confiscated records (from sealed record states), etc, are all sloppily lumped together.</p>
<p>Some, particularly certain industry lobbyists and marketers, play those conflations to the hilt, whereas I continually work for increased precision, pulling apart linguistic assumptions.</p>
<p>I cannot presume to speak for nor on behalf of the kids coming up from those situations. </p>
<p>I can however, speak to what secrets and lies, living with question marks in place of fundamental facts about one&#8217;s own existence on a day to day basis can feel like, and how rather than being in the business of creating more people who at times literally find themselves in the position of second class citizens legally in relation to the state, the state should instead be working towards eradicating those forms of inequity.</p>
<p>One of the fundamental and unavoidable problems with, or perhaps nature of adoption is that those in those situations are going to have a roughly 18 year lag, if their paperwork goes through tonight before they are able to legally fully participate in society and fully speak on their own behalf.</p>
<p>Any &#8216;mistakes&#8217;, (legal, &#8220;ethical&#8221; etc) made now, have a lag period before those most directly affected can speak on their own behalf.</p>
<p>For that reason alone, we should be deeply questioning <strong>ANY</strong> reopening of Vietnam in the going forward from here.</p>
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		<title>By: Baby Love Child</title>
		<link>http://www.babylovechild.org/2008/08/31/vietnam-the-sept-1-deadline-and-the-demand-for-a-new-intercountry-agreement-amidst-a-landscape-of-fraud/comment-page-1/#comment-273</link>
		<dc:creator>Baby Love Child</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Sep 2008 02:25:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.babylovechild.org/2008/08/31/vietnam-the-sept-1-deadline-and-the-demand-for-a-new-intercountry-agreement-amidst-a-landscape-of-fraud/#comment-273</guid>
		<description>Kev,

You are of course, absolutely correct, there have indeed been a precious few voices (available in english, anyway, and yes, there I am readily admitting the limitations of my own mostly monolingual personal limitations and the limitations of online translations dependence) consistently pounding away at this wall. I&#039;ve stumbled across each of the blogs you&#039;ve mentioned many times over in the past year as I&#039;ve tried to get up to speed on the details of all this.

Your work has most certainly informed my own. 

When I said 

&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;it has gotten surprisingly scant mention from adoptee bloggers. I find this deafening silence stunning in light of the ongoing rising number of arrests and other evidence of corruption and falsified documentation finally coming to light.&quot; &lt;/blockquote&gt;

in the intro, obviously I was not being clear.

Yes, there have been some bloggers fully on this, I clearly mis-spoke. Perhaps what I was most influenced by, in writing those bits above was the odd quiet that has become perhaps all the quieter as the deadline approached. Consider my referring to the &quot;deafening silence&quot; more a &quot;HEY, WAKE UP! PAY ATTENTION HERE!&quot; to much of the blogging I see occupying space while missing the point elsewhere across the adoptee blogosphere.

I suppose my other inherent assumptions is that at some point over the past year I&#039;m guessing I&#039;ve linked at least something of one of your blogspaces, if not, it&#039;s positively an oversight on my part. (This being a product of more than a month&#039;s worth of work, I&#039;m not on top of every link I&#039;ve used on the topic in the last almost year&#039;s worth of blogging.) Inherent to the piece I put up tonight are many of the assumptions that come from earlier links and blog posts I&#039;ve done, particularly in relation to Vietnam. That was one of the reasons I pointed out those earlier posts early on in the piece, folks should feel encouraged to go back and read or re-read them, they contain much of the documentation for what I take as bedrock in this piece, the corruption, the arrests, the paperwork modifications, etc.

This matters. It matters tremendously.

So much so that clearly, I (and others) have had a tremendously difficult task even trying trying to write it (and yes, falling short in many many ways even as I try.)

But ultimately, I&#039;m by no means THE voice on this, that has to fall to those most directly affected and on whose alleged behalf so much of all this structure was created in the first place. 

This is merely my personal take on it, speaking as a late 60&#039;s sealed records, domestic Bastard whose skin at least appears mighty damn &quot;white.&quot;

It&#039;s by no means &#039;your job&#039; to educate the clueless (which yes, at times does include me!) about what resources and writings do exist, but that said, I&#039;m damn glad you did. More people need to be seeing more of it.

Tonight. Tomorrow.

And as this continues to unfold.

Thanks for coming across and saying what you did. I can&#039;t speak for everyone, but me? I&#039;m listening.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kev,</p>
<p>You are of course, absolutely correct, there have indeed been a precious few voices (available in english, anyway, and yes, there I am readily admitting the limitations of my own mostly monolingual personal limitations and the limitations of online translations dependence) consistently pounding away at this wall. I&#8217;ve stumbled across each of the blogs you&#8217;ve mentioned many times over in the past year as I&#8217;ve tried to get up to speed on the details of all this.</p>
<p>Your work has most certainly informed my own. </p>
<p>When I said </p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;it has gotten surprisingly scant mention from adoptee bloggers. I find this deafening silence stunning in light of the ongoing rising number of arrests and other evidence of corruption and falsified documentation finally coming to light.&#8221; </p></blockquote>
<p>in the intro, obviously I was not being clear.</p>
<p>Yes, there have been some bloggers fully on this, I clearly mis-spoke. Perhaps what I was most influenced by, in writing those bits above was the odd quiet that has become perhaps all the quieter as the deadline approached. Consider my referring to the &#8220;deafening silence&#8221; more a &#8220;HEY, WAKE UP! PAY ATTENTION HERE!&#8221; to much of the blogging I see occupying space while missing the point elsewhere across the adoptee blogosphere.</p>
<p>I suppose my other inherent assumptions is that at some point over the past year I&#8217;m guessing I&#8217;ve linked at least something of one of your blogspaces, if not, it&#8217;s positively an oversight on my part. (This being a product of more than a month&#8217;s worth of work, I&#8217;m not on top of every link I&#8217;ve used on the topic in the last almost year&#8217;s worth of blogging.) Inherent to the piece I put up tonight are many of the assumptions that come from earlier links and blog posts I&#8217;ve done, particularly in relation to Vietnam. That was one of the reasons I pointed out those earlier posts early on in the piece, folks should feel encouraged to go back and read or re-read them, they contain much of the documentation for what I take as bedrock in this piece, the corruption, the arrests, the paperwork modifications, etc.</p>
<p>This matters. It matters tremendously.</p>
<p>So much so that clearly, I (and others) have had a tremendously difficult task even trying trying to write it (and yes, falling short in many many ways even as I try.)</p>
<p>But ultimately, I&#8217;m by no means THE voice on this, that has to fall to those most directly affected and on whose alleged behalf so much of all this structure was created in the first place. </p>
<p>This is merely my personal take on it, speaking as a late 60&#8217;s sealed records, domestic Bastard whose skin at least appears mighty damn &#8220;white.&#8221;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s by no means &#8216;your job&#8217; to educate the clueless (which yes, at times does include me!) about what resources and writings do exist, but that said, I&#8217;m damn glad you did. More people need to be seeing more of it.</p>
<p>Tonight. Tomorrow.</p>
<p>And as this continues to unfold.</p>
<p>Thanks for coming across and saying what you did. I can&#8217;t speak for everyone, but me? I&#8217;m listening.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicki</title>
		<link>http://www.babylovechild.org/2008/08/31/vietnam-the-sept-1-deadline-and-the-demand-for-a-new-intercountry-agreement-amidst-a-landscape-of-fraud/comment-page-1/#comment-272</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicki</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Sep 2008 02:05:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.babylovechild.org/2008/08/31/vietnam-the-sept-1-deadline-and-the-demand-for-a-new-intercountry-agreement-amidst-a-landscape-of-fraud/#comment-272</guid>
		<description>The end of an era article was originally an extremely long somewhat disjointed partly incoherent rambling, itself. I can relate. I ended up cutting it way off and leaving the rest as separate topics to be dealt with individually in the coming weeks. I hope you&#039;ll keep reading and I really REALLY hope other adoptees speak out and blog about these issues because some parents are listening and are pretty desperate right now for the adoptee perspective as we navigate the difficult territory ahead as, like you said, our children grow from babies and have questions that we will not be able to answer. 

Although it is easy to believe that all adoptive parents are simply happy to have made it out before the shutdown, there are a large and growing contingency of adoptive parents who mourn for what their children have lost  - or even potentially lost - and what their children&#039;s birth families have lost and will fight tooth and nail to prevent that from ever happening again through education, advocacy and lobbying. VVAI and specifically the article you cited are written for that audience and we certainly welcome the guidance and advice of adoptees. You are the voice that our children do not yet have.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The end of an era article was originally an extremely long somewhat disjointed partly incoherent rambling, itself. I can relate. I ended up cutting it way off and leaving the rest as separate topics to be dealt with individually in the coming weeks. I hope you&#8217;ll keep reading and I really REALLY hope other adoptees speak out and blog about these issues because some parents are listening and are pretty desperate right now for the adoptee perspective as we navigate the difficult territory ahead as, like you said, our children grow from babies and have questions that we will not be able to answer. </p>
<p>Although it is easy to believe that all adoptive parents are simply happy to have made it out before the shutdown, there are a large and growing contingency of adoptive parents who mourn for what their children have lost  &#8211; or even potentially lost &#8211; and what their children&#8217;s birth families have lost and will fight tooth and nail to prevent that from ever happening again through education, advocacy and lobbying. VVAI and specifically the article you cited are written for that audience and we certainly welcome the guidance and advice of adoptees. You are the voice that our children do not yet have.</p>
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		<title>By: Kev Minh</title>
		<link>http://www.babylovechild.org/2008/08/31/vietnam-the-sept-1-deadline-and-the-demand-for-a-new-intercountry-agreement-amidst-a-landscape-of-fraud/comment-page-1/#comment-271</link>
		<dc:creator>Kev Minh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Sep 2008 01:56:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.babylovechild.org/2008/08/31/vietnam-the-sept-1-deadline-and-the-demand-for-a-new-intercountry-agreement-amidst-a-landscape-of-fraud/#comment-271</guid>
		<description>Hi Baby Love Child,

Your comprehensive post on the adoption situation in Vietnam is well researched and timely. Thank you for calling attention to this issue and the injustice inherent in the machinery driving today&#039;s international adoption industry.

What raised my eyebrows, though, is that you assumed that adult Vietnamese adoptees have been silent on adoptions from Vietnam. Thankfully, that is not the case because I, as well as another Viet adoptee blogger, have been writing extensively about the corruption and temporary stoppage of adoptions from our birth country.

Please take a look at our blogs at:

Borrowed Notes
http://borrowednotes.wordpress.com/

&amp; 

Ethnically Incorrect Daughter
http://ethnicallyincorrect.wordpress.com/

Also, we co-blog with another adult Vietnamese adoptee at Misplaced Baggage, where we deal specifically with our lives as transracial/-ethnic adoptees.

http://misplacedbaggage.wordpress.com/

Lastly, back in May, I was invited by Gershom to be on The Adoption Show to specifically discuss the State Dept report on adoptions from Vietnam, as well as adoptions from Cambodia and Guatemala. You can listen to the podcast on their website.

I look forward to reading more of your writing and I wish you success in getting the word out there.

Thanks, Kev Minh</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Baby Love Child,</p>
<p>Your comprehensive post on the adoption situation in Vietnam is well researched and timely. Thank you for calling attention to this issue and the injustice inherent in the machinery driving today&#8217;s international adoption industry.</p>
<p>What raised my eyebrows, though, is that you assumed that adult Vietnamese adoptees have been silent on adoptions from Vietnam. Thankfully, that is not the case because I, as well as another Viet adoptee blogger, have been writing extensively about the corruption and temporary stoppage of adoptions from our birth country.</p>
<p>Please take a look at our blogs at:</p>
<p>Borrowed Notes<br />
<a href="http://borrowednotes.wordpress.com/" rel="nofollow">http://borrowednotes.wordpress.com/</a></p>
<p>&amp; </p>
<p>Ethnically Incorrect Daughter<br />
<a href="http://ethnicallyincorrect.wordpress.com/" rel="nofollow">http://ethnicallyincorrect.wordpress.com/</a></p>
<p>Also, we co-blog with another adult Vietnamese adoptee at Misplaced Baggage, where we deal specifically with our lives as transracial/-ethnic adoptees.</p>
<p><a href="http://misplacedbaggage.wordpress.com/" rel="nofollow">http://misplacedbaggage.wordpress.com/</a></p>
<p>Lastly, back in May, I was invited by Gershom to be on The Adoption Show to specifically discuss the State Dept report on adoptions from Vietnam, as well as adoptions from Cambodia and Guatemala. You can listen to the podcast on their website.</p>
<p>I look forward to reading more of your writing and I wish you success in getting the word out there.</p>
<p>Thanks, Kev Minh</p>
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